The History Book Club discussion

I thought that I would set up a location for those folks who would like to post some ancillary material for the AMERICAN SPHINX discussion that may in fact contain some spoiler information.

Since the weekly threads are non spoiler, it can be a difficult task to decide where to place such urls and ancillary materials. This is the place.

REMEMBER, IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO READ SPOILER INFORMATION; DO NOT READ FURTHER. Remain on the weekly non spoiler threads.

Joseph J. Ellis

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Presentism:

SPOILER:

This is an interview transcript that David Gergen did with Joseph Ellis in 1997 on The American Sphinx. Now remember this was before 9/11 and the American psyche was somewhat different then than it is now. There was one excerpt from Ellis that jumped out at me:

DAVID GERGEN: Right. Well, just as Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan are all claiming Jefferson, there are others in the economy in particular who have been knocking Jefferson a lot. Why is that?

JOSEPH ELLIS: Primarily because over the last twenty to twenty-five years, race has become one of the major windows through which people looking back at American history are trying to see things. And if you start looking at the issue of race and you look at Jefferson through that window, things are not going to look too good. Jefferson wrote there words that we are the magic words in American history, the ones that begin "We hold these truths to be self evident," that in some sense are responsible for the most liberal reforms, including the end of slavery, civil rights movement, the suffrage of women.

But Jefferson, himself, didn’t intend those words to mean all of those things, and on the issue of slavery, Jefferson remained a slave owner his entire life. He owned about 200 slaves throughout most of his life. And he really didn’t believe that blacks and whites could live together in the same society. And I think that’s what really upsets people in a world in which integration and multi-cultural values are the national norm, and we remain committed and wedded to the possibility of that kind of society, Jefferson doesn’t quite fit.

And there are those who even argue that we should tear down the Jefferson Memorial on the tidal basin, take his face off of Mt. Rushmore, and I think that that’s the major reason that he is vulnerable. I think within the academy too there is--there is a more general aversion to patriarchs who are dead white males, and he’s one of the deadest, whitest males there is. And so there are people wanting to go back and, in effect, bring him back into the present as a kind of trophy in the culture wars.

DAVID GERGEN: Part of Jefferson’s elusiveness that you point out in the book is that he could walk past the slave quarters at Monticello and be thinking brilliant thoughts about human liberty and human equality.

JOSEPH ELLIS: Right.

The real audio portion does not appear to be still available; but I have provided the complete transcript below.

I thought it was interesting that Ellis dedicated American Sphinx to his old mentor at Yale: Edmund Morgan.

Here is an interesting write-up on Morgan:



Source: History News Network

Edmund S. Morgan

Wikipedia article:

Jefferson's only book:

Notes on the State of Virginia:

University of Virginia Library:



Google:



Documenting the American South version:



Internet Archive (I like this version best - reads like a book)



Thomas Jefferson

C. Vann Woodward:



Source; Wikipedia



by C. Vann Woodward

This is a wonderful write-up of Woodward done by the American Historical Association: (In Memoriam)



McPherson on Woodward;

Ellis mentions Rembrant Peale's painting of Thomas Jefferson:

This is a good write-up on Rembrandt Peale...if you scroll down you can even see a self portrait of Mr. Peale and at the bottom some of his galleys...there is an 1805 portrait of Jefferson which I do not believe is the one that Ellis is referring to:



Source: Wikipedia

I think this is the 1800 one that hangs on Morgan's office wall but I could be mistaken:



This is the one that is on loan from the White House Historical Association.

There was also a replica of that 1805 Thomas Jefferson by Rembrandt Peale at the New York Historical Society (on the 4th floor) which I saw a few months back. Did you see it when you were there, Bentley?

I just noticed that at the bottom of that 1805 Jefferson at wikipedia it says, "Reprinted from the original painting by Rembrandt Peale through the courtesy of the New York Historical Society."

I think I did actually and I am trying to remember it...I need to go back because I spent so much time in the Lincoln exhibit you would have thought that I was one of the installers of the exhibition fixing something. Basically, I was there until closing time (smile). Also had dashed upstairs to spend some time with FDR.

I have been there before and was able to spend more time with the paintings on the previous visit..but I will certainly the next time seek it out.

Jean-Antoine Houdon: Sculptor of the Enlightenment
National Gallery of Art, Washington, D.C.



Wikipedia:



This was a remarkable sculpture of Washington..Washington looks far more human and real in this than in his paintings:



This is a remarkable bust of Thomas Jefferson and I believe this is pretty much the way he really looked - (this is a write-up from Monticello):



Spectacular full length piece by Houdon which is displayed in Richmond, Virginia: (George Washington)

An interesting article on Jefferson, his Vermont trip, evaluations of B&B's, impact on the maple syrup industry:

Joe, regarding your post in the main book section about Monticello I wanted to post this over here since I’m bordering on Spoilers and didn’t want to go over the line on my first book discussion (smile!).

I’m also treading a fine line between what I know and what I think I know so I’m opening myself up to some potential criticizism (sp?) here which I’ll freely accept in the name of furthering my own knowledge.

Now, regarding Monticello and it’s reflection on Jefferson. It has always been my impression that Jefferson died having never finished Monticello and, in fact, it nearly bankrupted him. This, to me, says a number of things about Jefferson. We also need to remember that the Monticello we can visit today was probably not the same place that it was in 1800. I know that’s an obvious statement but it bears saying anyway.

The first thing that it says to me is that he was a perfectionist. This is also apparent from his time as a student at William and Mary (the long days studying) and the offense he seem to take at the re-wording of the Declaration of Independence. I know personally that after I’ve written a fairly long and detailed report and spent days on it, I hate being word-smithed. He just never seemed to be satisfied with the place and the constant rehabilitation and tweaking just never stopped.

Secondly, if he was looking at Monticello as what he would be remembered by, he seems to be always looking over his shoulder wondering “is it good enough?”. After having gained notoriety as the original draftsman of the Declaration of Independence, a President of the United States, the Ambassador to France, he still seemed unsure of his legacy and needs Monticello to cement his standing. This suggests a huge issue with self confidence.

Lastly, it suggests that he wasn’t very fiscally sound and this is something that we can debate when we get to the Louisiana Purchase. The amount of money that was spent on aspects of the home only to have been changed later suggests a certain amount of fiscal irresponsibility.

Just my two cents…..

Jim, thank-you for your 2 cents.

Yes, you have touched on a few of Jefferson's most important highlights, and I totally agree with what you have said.

Monticello was his life-long project which consumed his perfectionist tendencies, even to his financial detriment...

and his determination to study well beyond most of his peers to satify his ambitions.

and by writing some of the most famous words in American history, all while owning slaves himself...

All this shows certainly a lasting contradiction in his personality. I look forward to reading more about Jefferson from Ellis, and our users here.

Thanks again for taking the time for posting that comment, Jim

Jim wrote: "Joe, regarding your post in the main book section about Monticello I wanted to post this over here since I’m bordering on Spoilers and didn’t want to go over the line on my first book discussion (s..."

Hi Jim,

I read with interest your post and you did the right thing placing it in the glossary. I also read Joe's response with great interest too.

I think you have posted some remarkable insight into Jefferson's character. He pretty much bankrupted himself because of his purchases abroard and elsewhere and always liked the absolute finest things in life.

I thought that he was not satisfied with himself and at some level did not have the confidence that you mention he was lacking. Maybe he felt he needed these accoutrements to enhance how he felt about himself and which would allow him to feel that he was worthy. I wonder if at some level the reason that Ellis was attracted to Jefferson was that he saw a lot of himself in Jefferson.

I think both of them needed to embellish themselves to feel worthy which actually they were all along.

Bentley

Joe and Bentley,

Thanks for the kind words. Bentley brings up an interesting topic, though, in bringing Ellis’s perspective into the mix. Having just been through a rather historic election here in the US and all the media hype surrounding it, we can get a good idea of how the writer himself or herself can determine the legacy of the subject and our own perceptions of the subject whether it be Barack Obama or Thomas Jefferson. Bentley suggests, and rightly so, that we should judge the source as well as the subject matter.

Yes, Jim...this book will prove rather interesting.

Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789

Thirty-four volumes Published by the Library of Congress, 1904-1937

Good find that they are on line. Now this would take us a bit of reading.

Thanks Joe.

I am placing this book here because I'm not sure it qualifies as a spoiler, or is off the track subject-wise from Ellis, and I am being cautious as a result.
At the local city public library I discovered and have started reading "I Am Murdered, George Wythe, Thomas Jefferson, and the Killing That Shocked a New Nation", by Bruce Chatwick.
This book is the account of the murder of George Wythe, one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and America's first professor of law, among other positions and honors he had. He was a close friend and mentor of Thomas Jefferson. They met at the College of William & Mary in 1759 when Jefferson was a student and Wythe one of his professors. Wythe was murdered in 1806, and this book gives quite an analysis of what happened, and evidently the shambles that was made of convicting the person who fatally poisoned Wythe, along with a prodigy of his, and tried to murder Wythe's long-time maid. I am mid-way into Chapter 4, and it does tell a lot about Jefferson, as each became a big part of the other's life.

Thank you for taking that trouble Virginia..it might have. But please make sure to also add the author's photo if available and always the author's link..You have the cover right.

The add should look like:

Bruce Chadwick

The Mechanics of the Board thread has even more details how to do it. Looks very interesting and thank you for the add.

Thanks, Bentley; this is the first time I've done this, and I was feeling my way through it.

Absolutely no problem...you got the book cover right the first time.

The Texas school system is requesting a rewrite of the history texts in myriad ways, including the removal of TJ as a founding father. These changes would not just be limited to Texas because the amount of spend that Texas makes in this area is likely to result in these changes becoming the norm.

What do you think about excluding TJ from the texts? My understanding is that he is being replaced with a section on John Calvin.

Here's a link that provides numerous articles on the subject:

This has caused quite a buzz. Here is a thoughtful article:



I guess the conservatives on the board have a real problem with TJ and separation of church and state and the Jefferson Bible. I find it absurd to leave him out. I don't think students are going to be understanding Blackstone, Calvin, and Aquinas in his place.

I hate to say this since this is happening in our own country but is this any different frankly than the madrassas (all in the name of religion).

This is sad and this is dangerous. Unfortunately, the party of Thomas Jefferson is doing it (they and this Wingnut Brigade as they are called).

Rewriting and reinterpreting history in terms of your own ideology is not what elected officials should do...our country is very much for the separation of church from state.

I honestly believe that even most conservatives would not agree with this outside of Texas.

I share your views as well. We will lose a significant part of our past as a culture and as a society if these types of revisions continue to occur. Generally, history is revised in textbooks so that different perspectives can be added (women, minorities, etc.), and thus, these revisions expand and enhance one's knowledge. Here, information is being removed as non-relevant when it is at the core of the creation of America. I agree that it both sad, dangerous and a circumvention of the key tenet to our development as a nation - that is, to keep religion out of government.

Absolutely Sera...even though I am part of a recognized and organized religion....I cringe when the church gets involved with politics and incites others to do violence in the name of religion. Of course, they deny the fact that folks are incited or that their preaching had anything to do with it; but they are and it did. So much harm has been done in the name of religion and religious values.

They just do not go hand in hand. Our forefathers got it right with the separation of church and state. Revisionist history as in this latest scenario is the wrong thing to do now that a few folks think they have a little power.

And to think that they are calling out Thomas Jefferson to boot.