The History Book Club discussion

This is the Classical Antiquity thread.



This thread is about the following:

"Classical antiquity (also the classical era or classical period) is a broad term for a long period of cultural history centered on the Mediterranean Sea, comprising the interlocking civilizations of Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome, collectively known as the Greco-Roman world.

It is the period in which Greek and Roman literature (such as Aeschylus, Ovid, Homer and others) flourished.

It is conventionally taken to begin with the earliest-recorded Greek poetry of Homer (8th–7th century BC), and continues through the rise of Christianity and the decline of the Roman Empire (5th century AD). It ends with the dissolution of classical culture at the close of Late Antiquity (AD 300-600), blending into the Early Middle Ages (AD 600-1000).

Such a wide sampling of history and territory covers many disparate cultures and periods. "Classical antiquity" may refer also to an idealized vision among later people of what was, in Edgar Allan Poe's words, "the glory that was Greece, the grandeur that was Rome!"

The civilization of the ancient Greeks has been immensely influential on the language, politics, educational systems, philosophy, science, art and architecture of the modern world, fueling the Renaissance in Western Europe and again resurgent during various neo-classical revivals in the 18th and 19th centuries."

Source: Wikipedia



This thread deals with the following: Archaic Greece · Median Empire . Classical Greece · Achaemenid Empire · Seleucid Empire · Dacia · Thrace · Scythia · Macedon · Roman Republic · Roman Empire · Parthia - Parthian Empire · Sassanid Empire · Late Antiquity

Please feel free to add books, images pertaining to Classical Antiquity, and/or urls, etc that pertain to this subject area. No self promotion please.

ARCHAIC GREECE:



THE ARCHAIC PERIOD - 800 - 500 BC



ENCYCLOPEDIA - ART:



ARCHAIC PERIOD:




Anthony M. Snodgrass

Gisela Marie Augusta Richter

[image error] George Grote

MEDIAN EMPIRE: 625 BC–549 BC

MEDES



Source - Wikipedia

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA - MEDIA AND THE MEDES

My son and I are planning to read Persian Fire The First World Empire and the Battle for the Westover his Christmas break. I will post a bit about it when we get started. We had been reading the Book Of Daniel in the Old Testament and many feel Daniel's prophecies refer to this period. Ever the historian, my son (who is 17) wanted to know what secular historians have written about the period. Some one in this group recommended this.

Andrea, that looks like a great book...don't forget to add the author.

Tom Holland

Holland writes both non fiction and historical fiction.

Andrea wrote: "My son and I are planning to read Persian Fire The First World Empire and the Battle for the Westover his Christmas break. I will post a bit about it when we get started. We had be..."

Hi Andrea,

I think you and your son will have a good time reading "Persian Fire", its a pretty good book and the author really gets you into the story. He has also written a very good account of Rome titled:

by Tom Holland

Some other good books covering this period are:

by Adrian Goldsworthy

and a classic but still good:

by Ernle Bradford

Aussie Rick..maybe you can help me out here. Which ones are about The Classical Antiquity thread? All of them or some of them.

This thread is about the following:

This thread deals with the following: Archaic Greece · Median Empire . Classical Greece · Achaemenid Empire · Seleucid Empire · Dacia · Thrace · Scythia · Macedon · Roman Republic · Roman Empire · Parthia - Parthian Empire · Sassanid Empire · Late Antiquity

I am trying to keep things on the right threads for the ancient history section and wanted to be sure that they were all correctly placed. Not being familiar with these adds...I am hoping you can assist.

Bentley wrote: "Aussie Rick..maybe you can help me out here. Which ones are about The Classical Antiquity thread? All of them or some of them.

This thread is about the following:

This thread deals with the fol..."

Hi Bentley,

Sorry if I have put these on the wrong thread. When I saw that Andrea was talking about reading "Persian Fire" I figured she would be interested in Tom Holland's other book that covered Rome and also Ernle Bradford's book on the conflict between Xerxes's Persian army and the Greeks at Thermopylae which is the topic in "Persian Fire". Please excuse my haste and I hope I haven't mucked things up for you.

Regards

Rick

If you would help me out here, I would be deeply appreciative...Could you look at the post above and just see where the books should go and maybe place them in the appropriate ancient history thread; you probably have these books in your library and it might be easier that way.

Just leave the ones here that should be on this thread...then all of the threads will benefit by having the right books being referenced on the right thread. Or if that is too much trouble then just edit the post and specifically highlight which book is thread appropriate and where the others should be and I could do it possibly.

We are also trying to build lists of books which map to specific interest areas; that is the reason that I am asking.

Hope you can help.

And don't worry about it...this can be fixed.

Bentley

I'd say Rubicon (great book!) and the one about Thermopylae are both certainly about Classical Antiquity, and probably also the one about the Punic Wars.

No idea about the Millenium one.

I had no idea about that one either...thanks Susanna.. Maybe..Aussie Rick can straighten this out. I am sure he has the book in his library. Thanks for coming to the rescue.

Bentley wrote: "I had no idea about that one either...thanks Susanna.. Maybe..Aussie Rick can straighten this out. I am sure he has the book in his library. Thanks for coming to the rescue."

Hi Bentley, I have removed "Millennium" as it covers the period AD 900, I added it to cover the author's books. I won't do that again unless it's appropriate to the thread. The other books should all sit comfortable withing this time period.

Thank you so much Aussie..when I saw Millennium..I had started to wonder.

We are trying to keep the interest areas separate by time, etc.

Fot those interested in this period here is a new book just released in the US (its on my Christmas list!):

by Adrienne Mayor

The Washington Post:
"The Poison King" is, as its subtitle makes clear, the story of the life of Mithradates, leader of the ancient Black Sea kingdom of Pontus, who, in the 1st century B.C., did everything he could to overthrow the Roman Empire. I read this biography as a layperson, not a scholar, but I can say without reservation that it's a wonderful reading experience, as bracing as a tonic, the perfect holiday gift for adventure-loving men and women. A finalist for this week's National Book Award, it's drenched in imaginative violence and disaster, but it also wears the blameless vestments of culture and antiquity. You can have all the fun of reading about a greedy villain being put to death by being made to "drink" molten gold, but still hide safe behind the excuse that you're just brushing up on your classics. Mithradates, as the royal heir of Pontus, was trained in all the manly sports and modeled his life on heroes of yore like Alexander the Great and Hannibal. Perhaps because of his suspicious, murderous mother, he took a lively interest from his earliest years in poisons and their antidotes. Quite a few of his relatives had been or would be poisoned, so this was a sensible precaution. When his father died and he ascended the throne, he married his own sister, who imprudently cheated on him when he went away on a trip. She was done away with; his siblings, either killed or imprisoned. Along the way, he developed an all-consuming hatred of the Roman Empire, which ruled its colonies and client states mercilessly, taxing even the wealthiest families into crippling debt, then selling the debtors into slavery. And so it was that in 88 B.C., by the order of Mithradates, "at least 80,000 -- perhaps as many as 150,000 -- Roman and Italian residents of Anatolia and [the:] Aegean islands were massacred," reportedly in one day. It was the closest thing to genocide recorded in the Western world up to that time. Mithradates' reputation rested on that historic massacre -- and upon his extraordinary knowledge of poisons. He wasn't a very savory person, unless, perhaps, you hated the Roman Empire with all your heart. That's why this book seems so terrific to me. What would it even mean to hate the Roman Empire with all your heart? The passion here is breathtaking. The author tells us that Mithradates was portrayed as a monster by Roman historians, but to the people of what is now Turkey and surrounding areas, he was, at times, seen as a beloved hero. "The Poison King" provides us with both calm and distance. The author indirectly compares Mithradates to Osama bin Laden, and later, more surprisingly, to Christ. (Mithradates was also born under an auspicious star of the East and visited by wise men. And Christ himself, lest we forget, was executed by the Romans as a seditious troublemaker.) Mithradates' universal antidote, a substance he worked on for years so that he would never be poisoned, is a dream that lingers on in the modern world. A complicated potion called Mithridatium "became the most popular and longest-lived prescription in history, available in Rome as recently as 1984." The past is always with us. So reading about all the corpses and catastrophes, the flocks of poisoned ducks and the hives of poisoned honey, the monarch's botched sacrifice of a virgin (stymied by bursts of supernatural laughter), the meteors and omens, and most of all the wretched death that finally caught up with this headstrong despot, can be as peaceful as it is thrilling. Things haven't improved all that much in 2,100 years, but they haven't gotten much worse, either. If you're still in a position to read "The Poison King," that means you're alive and well, here on this perplexing, horrifying and beautiful Earth.

Other reviews:
"I can say without reservation that it's a wonderful reading experience, as bracing as a tonic, the perfect holiday gift for adventure-loving men and women. A finalist for this week's National Book Award, it's drenched in imaginative violence and disaster, but it also wears the blameless vestments of culture and antiquity. You can have all the fun of reading about a greedy villain being put to death by being made to 'drink' molten gold, but still hide safe behind the excuse that you're just brushing up on your classics." - Carolyn See Washington Post

"Mayor gives us a more nuanced view of the so-called Poison King, placing him in his proper context as a Greco-Persian ruler following in the footsteps of his purported ancestor Alexander the Great. The most compelling aspect of this story is Mayor's engaging style. A true storyteller, she makes Mithradates's world come alive. This distinctive and compelling book is sure to fascinate all readers interested in the ancient world or in understanding the historical politics of the Caucasus region." - Library Journal

That DOES sound amazing. Wow!

Elizabeth S wrote: "That DOES sound amazing. Wow!"

It sounded so good I had to add it to my Christmas wish list!

I have finally decided to bite the bullet and buy some copies of Procopius's “History of the Wars”. I have ordered five of the seven volumes available from The Loeb Classical Library edition of Procopius. I’d be interested to hear from anyone who have read these accounts and what they thought.

Volume I. History of the Wars - Books 1-2. The Persian War
Volume II. History of the Wars - Books 3-4. The Vandalic War
Volume III. History of the Wars - Books 5-6.15. The Gothic War
Volume IV. History of the Wars - Books 6.16-7.35. The Gothic War (continued)
Volume V. History of the Wars - Books 7.36-8. The Gothic War (continued)

Publisher’s information on the series:
“Procopius's History of the Wars in 8 books recounts the Persian Wars of emperors Justinus and Justinian down to 550 (2 books); the Vandalic War and after-events in Africa 532–546 (2 books); the Gothic War against the Ostrogoths in Sicily and Italy 536–552 (3 books); and a sketch of events to 554 (1 book). The whole consists largely of military history, with much information about peoples and places as well, and about special events. He was a diligent, careful, judicious narrator of facts and developments and shows good powers of description. He is just to the empire's enemies and boldly criticises emperor Justinian. Other works by Procopius are the Anecdota or Secret History—vehement attacks on Justinian, Theodora, and others; and The Buildings of Justinian (down to 558 CE) including roads and bridges as well as churches, forts, hospitals, and so on in various parts of the empire.”

Procopius, born at Caesarea in Palestine late in the 5th century, became a lawyer. In 527 CE he was made legal adviser and secretary of Belisarius, commander against the Persians, and went with Belisarius again in 533 against the Vandals and in 535 against the Ostrogoths. Sometime after 540 he returned to Constantinople. He may have been that Procopius who was prefect of Constantinople in 562, but the date of his death (after 558) is unknown.

by Procopius

These look to be pretty good. I might add these to my list.

Bentley wrote: "These look to be pretty good. I might add these to my list."

Hi Bentley, I searched around and found the cheapest place to buy them for me in Australia was at bookdepository.com as there were no P&P charges. Only about $24.00 per volume in hardback.

No shipping charges anywhere in the world is good. I will also have to look at Amazon and see what their prices are.

Thank you for the tip.

This is an interesting short video on the caves of Rome.

Bentley wrote: "This is an interesting short video on the caves of Rome.

"

Fascinating, thanks for the link Bentley.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Elizabeth S wrote: "That DOES sound amazing. Wow!"

It sounded so good I had to add it to my Christmas wish list!"

I have read parts of Volumes I, III, and IV, as well as all of the Secret History.
The Histories are a decent account of Byzantine history during the pivotal time between East and West in European history. I have those volumes in a box somewhere. I shall have to pull them out again for another read.
Thanks all!

Angie wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Elizabeth S wrote: "That DOES sound amazing. Wow!"

It sounded so good I had to add it to my Christmas wish list!"

I have read parts of Volumes I, III, and IV, as well a..."

I am looking forward to receiving my copies soon. They sound pretty good from the reviews that I have read elsewhere. Did you find the reading hard going or was the narrative fairly easy to understand & read?

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Angie wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Elizabeth S wrote: "That DOES sound amazing. Wow!"

It sounded so good I had to add it to my Christmas wish list!"

I have read parts of Volumes I, III, and..."

I found them fairly easy to read and understand. There were a few parts where I got bogged down, but for the most part the narrative was easily understandable.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Elizabeth S wrote: "That DOES sound amazing. Wow!"

It sounded so good I had to add it to my Christmas wish list!"

I put it on my must buy list ;-)

Rick, The Poison King is a great read.
Another very interesting and well written book which I'll add here is about "Secret Service" in the Roman world.
Of course it can't be compared to what we have today, but then, without the proper intelligence there often was no way to win the war or get rid of yet another emperor.

[image error] Rose Mary Sheldon

Her next book will be out shortly, on the Parthian Wars. Before ordering it please check out the prices at the different e-stores. The amazons sometimes have different prices, depending from which site you order.

André wrote: "Rick, The Poison King is a great read.
Another very interesting and well written book which I'll add here is about "Secret Service" in the Roman world.
Of course it can't be compared to what we ha..."

Hi Andre, I better put "The Poison King" at the top of my list to read then! Thanks for the up-date. The new book by Rose Mary Sheldon sounds like one I must have in my library!

by Adrienne Mayor

[image error] by Rose Mary Sheldon

I just received my copy of the first volume of Procopius "History of the Wars" which looks like a very nice little volume, hmmm, so many books, so little time!

by Procopius

Rick, how about a new house?

André wrote: "Rick, how about a new house?"

Hi Andre, Have you been talking to my wife! I have looked around for a hardback copy of "Rome's Wars in Parthia" and you are right, its a bit expensive, I might have to wait around for a second hand copy.

[image error] by Rose Mary Sheldon

Makes ereaders seem more and more attractive, both for the weight of it for big fat histories, and the space-saving aspect!

Susanna, sorry, but that remains a question of taste.
I hate those things; they're plastic, ugly, have no charm whatsoever... please!

I like to walk into a room full of books and I like to sit in a chair holding a book in my hands. I like to browse through the pages and I find it easier to read than a computer screen, I'm afraid I will stick with the old fashion book :)

Well I have started book I-II of Procopius's "History of the Wars". The first book in the series covers the Persian War and so far it’s been pretty good, better than expected! I now have the first five books in the series and although small, they look great with one page in the original Greek text and the opposite page in the English translation (1905-1913). It seems a bit wasteful but its nice to look at the old text whilst reading away.

by Procopius

Rick, it's a nice series. I have the Tacitus.

André wrote: "Rick, it's a nice series. I have the Tacitus."

Hi Andre, I must confess that I was pleasantly surprised by the books and I am enjoying the first volume, lots of little side stories and interesting bits of information, a bit like Herodotus.

I finished my first volume of Procopius's "History of the Wars". What a great story, I enjoyed it so much I am thinking about purchasing the set of "The Histories" by Polybius. However I best finish off the other four volumes of Procopius first :)

by Procopius

by Polybius

Gee I wonder if I can get that on my Kindle..have to check...I could go through it a bit at a time.

Bentley wrote: "Gee I wonder if I can get that on my Kindle..have to check...I could go through it a bit at a time. "

Hi Bentley, apparently Penguin have published a single volume of Polybius but its pretty condensed and misses a fair bit from his works.

by Polybius

u got me I ordered the first History of the Wars: Books 1-2 Procopius...

Patrik wrote: "u got me I ordered the first History of the Wars: Books 1-2 Procopius..."

Hi Patrik, I really hope you enjoy it. I found it to be quite good considering when it was written and when I checked around I found the majority of other people/readers enjoyed the books as well. I intend to read all of the volumes that cover the military campaigns. Let me know what you think of the book once you have had the chance to read it.

by Procopius

André wrote: "Rick, it's a nice series. I have the Tacitus."

Hi Andre, Did you enjoy Tacitus's 'Histories'? Do you have any others in the Loeb Classical Library series?

by Cornelius Tacitus

This is another title that I am now considering adding to my ever-growing 'to-read' list:

by Livy

I have just started reading Procopius "History of the Wars", the second volume, Books III-IV, The Vandalic War. Here is a sample of the writing which I find so enjoyable:

"And the barbarians, finding that they had no hostile force to encounter them, became the most cruel of all men. For they destroyed all the cities which they captured, especially those south of the Ionian Gulf, so completely that nothing has been left to my time to know them by, unless, indeed, it might be one tower or one gate or some such thing which chanced to remain. And they killed all the people, as many as came in their way, both old and young alike, sparing neither women nor children. Wherefore even up to the present time Italy is sparsely populated....."

[image error] by Procopius

Well I have finished the second book from Procopius's "History of the Wars" (Volume II - Books 3-4. The Vandalic War). The Vandalic War was was fought in North Africa (modern Tunisia and Algeria) during 533-534 AD between the forces of the Eastern Roman Empire and the Vandal Kingdom of Carthage.

Overall a very enjoyable and interesting book full of battles, skirmishes, mutinies and treachery and I am sure many readers of classical accounts will enjoy this book and others in the series.

[image error] by Procopius

I've dug around in my library and pulled out a few books that should be listed here. The first two are classic accounts by Julius Caesar:

[image error] by Julius Caesar
Publishers blurb:
"The Civil War is Caesar's masterly account of the celebrated war between himself and his great rival Pompey, from the crossing of the Rubicon in January 49 B.C. to Pompey's death and the start of the Alexandrian War in the autumn of the following year. His unfinished account of the continuing struggle with Pompey's heirs and followers is completed by the three anonymous accounts of the Alexandrian, African, and Spanish Wars, which bring the story down to within a year of Caesar's assassination in March 44 B.C. This generously annotated edition places the war in context and enables the reader to grasp it both in detail and as a whole."

[image error] by Julius Caesar
Publishers blurb:
"Between 58 and 50BC Caesar conquered most of the area now covered by France, Belgium and Switzerland, and twice invaded Britain. This is the record of his campaigns. Caesar's narrative offers insights into his military strategy & paints a fascinating picture of his encounters with the inhabitant of Gaul and Britain, as well as offering lively portraits of a number of key characters such as the rebel leaders and Gallic chieftains. This can also be read as a piece of political propaganda, as Caesar sets down his version of events for the Roman public, knowing that he faces civil war on his return to Rome."


I have read both these accounts and found them to be quite good and enjoyable. One book that I have failed to read is; "History of the Peloponnesian War" by Thucydides which I hope to rectify some time soon.

by Thucydides
Publisher blurb:
"The greatest historian that ever lived." Such was Macaulay's assessment of Thucydides (c. 460-400 BC) and his history of the Peloponnesian War, the momentous struggle between Athens and Sparta that lasted for twenty-seven years from 431 to 404 BC, involved virtually the whole of the Greek world, and ended in the fall of Athens. A participant in the war himself, Thucydides brings to his history an awesome intellect, brilliant narrative, and penetrating analysis of the nature of power, as it affects both states and individuals. Of the prose writers of the ancient world, Thucydides has had more lasting influence on western thought than all but Plato and Aristotle.

For those who love Celtic history the author, Peter Berresfod Ellis, published a number of great books covering their history:

and and by Peter Berresford Ellis

For students of military history during the times of the ancients I can recommend these two very interesting books:

by Paul Bentley Kern

by Serge Yalichev

Well I have started reading the third volume (Books V-VI.15) of Procopius "History of the Wars". This volume covers the wars against the Goths with the last of the great Roman/Byzantine Generals, Belisarius.

by Procopius

If anyone is interested in some books covering this famous commander I can suggest these two books that are currently available (I have not read either title):

by Ian Hughes

The Life Of Belisarius by Lord Mahon

"Belisarius (c. 505-565 AD) was the greatest general of the Eastern Roman Empire and is among history's most notable military personalities. At the age of 29, he twice defeated the Persians and reconquered North Africa from the Vandals, before going on to regain the Italian peninsula from the Ostrogoths, including the Eternal City, Rome. Fighting in the name of Justinian I, Belisarius recaptured large portions of the original territory of the ancient Roman Empire. However, Byzantium was both unwilling and incapable of retaining much of Belisarius's hard-won advances, and soon after his death, the empire once again retracted."

I have nearly finished the third book of Procopius's "History of the Wars" which covers books V & VI of the Gothic Wars. This has been a great read and an enjoyable stroll though history. This volume covers the invasion of Italy by Belisarius who was tasked by the Emperor to re-conquer Italy for the Empire.

We read about the fall of Naples to Belisarius and his progress to Rome whereupon he was caught in the siege of Rome by the Goths. I am looking forward to reading the final two books in this series which also cover the Gothic wars.

I have enjoyed these titles so much that it has prompted me to order the six volumes of "The Histories" by Polybius from the Leob Classical Library.

by Procopius

by Polybius