Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion

This is the thread for the March 2015 Group Read of The End of Sparta by Victor Davis Hanson

I have reserved this book and the other group read Plague Land from the library.

Come March, I'll start the month with Plague Land and come to this book after I finish that one.

I plan to reread this book and to read both of the others.

I think I will reread it too.

Looking forward to chatting to you both as we read it.

Eileen wrote: "I think I will reread it too."

@Eileen, I think more things may make more sense while rereading; I know they did with my 2nd time.

Jane wrote: "Eileen wrote: "I think I will reread it too."

@Eileen, I think more things may make more sense while rereading; I know they did with my 2nd time."

Probably so. That book had a lot of different layers in it.

Intriguing...

I just received mine in the mail.

I am going to try and get to this one for the group reads. It's been on my TBR for awhile so I've got it ordered from the library and hopefully I'll not get sidetracked!

Dawn wrote: "I am going to try and get to this one for the group reads. It's been on my TBR for awhile so I've got it ordered from the library and hopefully I'll not get sidetracked!"

The author used an almost Homeric voice in writing this novel. It isn't for the faint of heart. It is also the only novel I can recall that I've underlined sentences in. It isn't easy, but it is good.

Eileen wrote: "Dawn wrote: "I am going to try and get to this one for the group reads. It's been on my TBR for awhile so I've got it ordered from the library and hopefully I'll not get sidetracked!"

The author u..."

I've started it for my 3rd reading; I think the author's problem [if you call it such] is that his sentences are so darn long, with so many subordinate clauses. I'd diagram some in my head; many subjects and verbs are really separated.
@Eileen, "Homeric voice"--good description.

Sounds good, I could use a book I can sink my teeth into. Been reading too many candy books lately and I need something different.

I'm not sure I am in the right frame of mind to sink my teeth into something too complex right now. I'll still give it a go though. I was forewarned by Jane so I knew I would be going into something that requires me to think.
I have so much going on at the moment, that I feel if it requires too much thought I may not be able to finish it. My brain is tired from all the farmwork lately, amoung other things.

Terri wrote: "I'm not sure I am in the right frame of mind to sink my teeth into something too complex right now. I'll still give it a go though. I was forewarned by Jane so I knew I would be going into somethin..."

Just take small bites if you do read it. I do hope you read it, if not with the group read this month, some other time in future. It's certainly worthwhile.

I definitely will get to it. Promise. :)

Jane's right. Start with small bites. It wasn't until the second half that I started to read more at one sitting.

This book is chambered and ready to start.

You have to get used to Hanson's style, his system of Greek transliteration and use of Greek words or phrases in the text. Most Greek you are able to figure out from context, or he translates into English nearby in the text. Here's an example quoting from the description of the Spartan camp: "Order governed the camp, so too order on the battlefield--Spartan eunomia".

There aren't as many complex sentences as I remember.

Anyone else out here? I feel lonely.

I just finished the first chapter, and I can already tell I am going to like this one. I like the styling of Hanson's writing.

so Jane, there is at least one other person reading this one

Oh, I'm glad. I thought I was alone.

Jane wrote: "Oh, I'm glad. I thought I was alone."

You aren't alone Jane!

Sorry, I don't think I'll be picking this up from the library until next week.
But I hope to join you then!

I have my copy, but I've not been able to get to it. What with the malaise and work... if only life would just remember that reading is more important to me ha!

I am still undecided about whether I'm going to get into this one. I've read the preface, and I love the idea of doing something with a set of events I know very little about. However, I'm worried that this is going to carry the this particular chunk of classical antiquity is the ideological successor to some part of modern western society trope. I don't particularly like that line of reasoning, and since I just got done with a cold war anxieties carrying sci-fi read for another book club, I'm kind of burned out on what does this tell us about how modern western society perceives itself analysis. I don't know. We'll see.

I'll be on the read after Plague Land. Which means it will probably be around the same time as Dawn shows up for the End of Sparta read.

Hang in there, Jane. You'll have more than Daniel for company soon. (not that there's anything wrong with Daniel's company of course) :)

I have just started reading this one. Thus far I am enjoying it for the most part, but I do have some mixed feelings about the style of writing. I don't feel as if I am entirely captivated by the story, but still I am interested.

One of the things of which I am curious about is the frequent references to the Boeotians as being "Pig Men." The more it was brought up I wondered, where the Boeotians known to be pig farmers? Or was that just a common derogatory term the Spartans used for tier enemies? Or is there some other meaning behind it?

I don't know for sure, but I took it as a pejorative.

I suspect it's a pejorative as well. Pindar is quoted as saying that Boeotians were once called Hogs (because they are equally dim-witted). At a guess, I'm assuming that it was thought that today's reader would more appropriately associate with Pig Men than with Hog Men? Though, how we might today think that pigs are dull is beyond me. But I suppose, if asking around, what people thought Hog Men might mean, the polled might think a biker-gang which is probably not the interpretation the author was aiming for?

Apparently, in some circles still today, to call someone a Boeotian is to refer to them as being dull.

Silver wrote: "I have just started reading this one. Thus far I am enjoying it for the most part, but I do have some mixed feelings about the style of writing. I don't feel as if I am entirely captivated by the s..."

Hanson's style of writing takes some getting used to. Eventually, I came to realize it held Homeric qualities that you don't find in other novelists. The author is an expert on ancient Greek and Roman military history so I think the book is about as close to what happened as you can get from this distance.

Darcy wrote: "I suspect it's a pejorative as well. Pindar is quoted as saying that Boeotians were once called Hogs (because they are equally dim-witted). At a guess, I'm assuming that it was thought that today's..."

Thank you for the explanation. While I agree that the term Pig doesn't make me instantly think dim-witted, I can see where the word Pig used as an insult would be more relateable to the modern reader than the term Hog might be.

I relate Pigs as being stubborn moreso than dim witted, due to the term pig-headed. And pigs are extremely stubborn creatures in reality.
That is where my mind would probably go to I think. Not reading it yet though.

I don't quite get the significance of Melon being the "apple" which was spoken of within the prophecy. It seems as if some sort of pun upon Melon's name is being implied.

Well, pig > "maiale" is definitely a pejorative in Italian.

Well I have the book on my kindle now and hope to start it soon. I'd like to finish The Pillars of the Earth first though. Unfortunately I can't get Plague Land until May or June, I have it preordered on Book Depository.

Silver wrote: "I don't quite get the significance of Melon being the "apple" which was spoken of within the prophecy. It seems as if some sort of pun upon Melon's name is being implied."

I may be wrong, but doesn't Melon mean apple in Greek? Or is it close to apple?

Modern Greek: Mêlo
Ancient Greek [Attic]: Mêlon

Oh ok, that makes sense, thanks for the info

Later in the book one Spartan uses the word Mâlon to mean apple [referring to our hero], which is Doric dialect of ancient Greek. Spartans spoke Doric dialect.

I've just read the first two chapters, they seem interesting enough. I'm curious as to the prophecy concerning Melon. He doesn't seem an important man, and yet The presence of Melon, the apple, would win over the hesitant horsemen and the scared farmers... . I'm looking forward to the first battle. I've never heard of Epaminondas and it seems an interesting moment of Greek history, so am happy with the topic.

I also like how apparently there are more POVs than just one. What I disliked in, say, Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel of the Battle of Thermopylae was the first person narration and a single person perspective. Here we have a peek into both the Boiotian and Spartan camps in the first two chapters.

Also, as this is the first discussion in which I participate in this group I wanted to ask if we can discuss the events from the novel here or maybe I have already written too much? If so, I apologise.

You are most welcome to discuss the novel; however, we ask that plot points, or anything that might be considered a spoiler be put in a 'spoiler tag'.

The code for that can be found by clicking on the '(some html is okay) link just above the comment box.

Also, welcome to your first grouo read Teanka, I hope you enjoy the experience and join us in another :)

Teanka wrote: "I've just read the first two chapters, they seem interesting enough. I'm curious as to the prophecy concerning Melon. He doesn't seem an important man, and yet The presence of Melon, the apple, wo..."

I am rather curious about the prophchy as well. As I have to admit that the first appearance of Melon did not strike me as an overly impressive one. I do not know just how it is this one man is to be the savior of Boeotia.

Ohh, yes. Spoilers please.

I'm going to have to avoid this thread until I get started so I don't know everything before I read it.

Dawn wrote: "Ohh, yes. Spoilers please.

I'm going to have to avoid this thread until I get started so I don't know everything before I read it."

It's hard for me to keep my fingers from typing and maybe giving stuff away;
Read #3 is just as good as the first time. :)

Thus far Chapter 5: Spartans is one of my favorites in the book. I thought it had some really good descriptions.

(view spoiler)[I really liked the way in which we see the different points of view of both the Spartans and the Boeotians as they begin to approach the war and the reactions and struggles with each side.

I also loved the whole scene about Pan the 'ghost-god" causing fear within the Boeotians (hide spoiler)]

I've also read the first two chapters. I also like that the POV is from both sides. I knew only a little about this time, so I'm interested in seeing where this goes.

reading this book on the heels of The Spartans: The World of the Warrior-heroes of Ancient Greece, and I am enjoying it. Kind of like watching those history and film shows on History, where they show a documentary and then a historical movie.

around 25% in and I am hooked.

Rereading it now, I am enjoying it more this time. The many pieces of the story make more sense, plus I am now more familiar with Epaminonides and what happened.

I agree, Eileen. I know I pick up things that didn't quite make sense on the first reading, or that I had just sloughed over.