The History Book Club discussion

This is the Week Five non-spoiler thread for the book The Ghost on the Throne: The Death of Alexander the Great and the War for Crown and Empire by James Romm

by James Romm (no photo)

Hello Everyone,

For the week of August 10th - August 16th, we are reading Chapter 5: The Athenians’ Last Stand (II) of Ghost On the Throne by James Romm.

The fifth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK FIVE - August 10th - August 16th -> 5. The Athenians’ Last Stand (II)
(110 - 136)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off July 13th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~ Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by James Romm (no photo)

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.

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Also, the citation thread:

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Introduction Thread

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Table of Contents and Syllabus

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Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Here is the link:

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Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations or other books either non fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self promotion, please.

Here is the link:

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Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - Spoiler Thread

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Link:

by James Romm (no photo)

Everyone, for the week of August 10th - August 16th, we are reading Chapter 5.

The fifth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK FIVE - August 10th - August 16th -> 5. The Athenians’ Last Stand (II)
(110 - 136)

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter 5

Back in the European part of the empire, Antipater was desperate to break out of the Athenian siege and sent a message to Leonnatus in Anatolia begging for help. Olympias in Macedon had also sent to Leonnatus for help, offering her daughter Cleopatra as a wife as inducement – perhaps as part of the royal family he could take control of Macedon. Leonnatus had taken Eumenes into his confidence as to his plans, but Eumenes decided he’d be better off on the side of Perdiccas and left for Babylon. Leonnatus crossed the Hellespont with his troops and arrived in Pella, the Macedonian capital, with great fanfare. He gathered more troops locally and proceeded to Lamia. The Greek cavalry succeeded in driving back Leonnatus’ horsemen and he himself was killed. But the Macedonian phalanx was very strong and Antipater’s men were able to break out of Lamia.

In order to finally defeat the Greeks, Antipater needed more cavalry from Craterus and he needed to secure the Hellespont in order for them to cross. Alexander had built up his navy in order to counteract the Athenian navy. His ships were joined by a second fleet led by Cleitus the White and the Macedonians took control of the sea. Craterus and his men joined up with Antipater and they faced the Greek forces at Crannon on the Thelassian plain. Again, the Macedonian phalanx was so strong the Greek cavalry had to withdraw. The inexperienced leaders of the Greek army sued for peace and the Hellenic war was over.

The price Athens had to pay was to abandon democracy and become an oligarchy. Demosthenes and Hyperides fled Athens to escape being handed over to Antipater. They sought sanctuary in sacred spaces but were killed.

Chapter Five


Olympias on a gold medal for the Macedonian games

Discussion Topics and Questions:

1. Both the Macedonian and Athenian forces were led by excellent generals who were, sadly, each killed in battle. On the Athenian side, Leosthenes had trapped Antipater inside Lamia when he was struck in the head by a stone and died within days. For the Macedonians, Leonnatus helped break the siege at Lamia, but was mortally wounded in a fight with the Thessalian cavalry. However the Macedonians had several other experienced generals, while it seems the Athenians didn’t. Why do you think that is?

2. Alexander’s mother Olympias was rumored to have done many bad things: poisoning Arrhidaeus so that his mind was destroyed; being complicit in the assassination of her husband Philip II; killing Philip’s most recent wife and her baby daughter. Was she really that bad or was she maligned for being a woman who involved herself in politics?

3. Did the change in Athens from a democracy to an oligarchy have much of an impact on the Athenian man in the street?

The forced change in Athens from democracy to oligarchy reminded me of Polybius' theory of government, that it changes from a monarchy to an aristocracy, to an oligarchy, then to democracy, and finally to mob rule.

by Polybius

1. Both the Macedonian and Athenian forces were led by excellent generals who were, sadly, each killed in battle. On the Athenian side, Leosthenes had trapped Antipater inside Lamia when he was struck in the head by a stone and died within days. For the Macedonians, Leonnatus helped break the siege at Lamia, but was mortally wounded in a fight with the Thessalian cavalry. However the Macedonians had several other experienced generals, while it seems the Athenians didn’t. Why do you think that is?

I'm still mulling this one over.


2. Alexander’s mother Olympias was rumored to have done many bad things: poisoning Arrhidaeus so that his mind was destroyed; being complicit in the assassination of her husband Philip II; killing Philip’s most recent wife and her baby daughter. Was she really that bad or was she maligned for being a woman who involved herself in politics?

I think it was a bit of both. As a woman in power she wanted to make sure she remained with a grasp on power and possibly did unspeakable things in order to secure her son’s place on the throne.

3. Did the change in Athens from a democracy to an oligarchy have much of an impact on the Athenian man in the street?

Oh I believe it did. Nothing ever really comes from storing all the power to a few.

Thanks for your comments, Stephanie. Regarding the first question, maybe the Athenians didn't think they needed to have a roster of generals since they were the center of the intellectual universe, and that was all they needed.

Olympias seems to have been pretty adept politically, but with Alexander gone, I'm sure she felt she was possibly in peril.

Just finished the chapter. Had a few “who is this guy?” moments. I’m still getting little nuggets that impress me about Alexander. On Romm paperback page 143, Alexander was “anticipating war in the west”. He was on top of it.

It makes sense to me that, after fighting in the east for 12 years, the Macedonians would have a number of battle hardened leaders at all levels. This would give them a depth of command that the Athenians might not have.

Not sure I know enough about Olympias to comment. We usually have to balance the good and bad of the people in history. I don’t know the good part, if it existed, of Olympias.

Once you give people something, taking it away causes problems. True today and, I assume, then. “The disenfranchised poor, having grown used to having power, found its loss hard to bear” (Romm, p. 150). I left out some words to save typing.

Michael, as I was reading chapter 5, I was hearing, in my mind, Macedonia with a hard “c”.

Bill wrote: "On Romm paperback page 143, Alexander was “anticipating war in the west”. He was on top of it...."

I wonder when he would have stopped, if at all. And I wonder why he didn't go to Italy and Sicily. Not enough treasure, maybe.

Bill wrote: "Just finished the chapter. Had a few “who is this guy?” moments. I’m still getting little nuggets that impress me about Alexander. On Romm paperback page 143, Alexander was “anticipating war in the..."

I have the same issue with keeping track of all the names!

I wish there were more maps in the book. The ones at the beginning and end of the book, showing what Alexander's empire looked like when he died and when it was broken up in 315 BCE are interesting, but not sufficient.

I couldn't visualize where Thessaly was, so I Googled maps of it and found this one. Some of the names are modern, but it gives you an idea of where places we've heard of are.



Source:

I think Leonnatus had a good plan—except for the “getting killed” part. Save Antipater but reject his daughter and then marry into the royal family. Antipater might be upset because he didn’t marry his daughter, but he would be indebted to Leonnatus for saving him. Leonnatus would be in a good position to attack Perdiccas from the Macedonian homeland.

Bill, as Robert Burns said: “The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley.”

Vicki wrote: "I wish there were more maps in the book. The ones at the beginning and end of the book, showing what Alexander's empire looked like when he died and when it was broken up in 315 BCE are interesting..."

I agree about the maps. I pretty much finished the book and there are many times where a map would have helped a lot!

Actually, the 4 maps in the inner text are pretty good. They were all done by a company called Beehive Mapping. I went to their website to see if they had any more, and they had several samples from other books, quite a variety.

Vicki wrote: "I wish there were more maps in the book. "

Yes....and I wish there were who's who brief description (not Wiki details) to look at when I am at a loss .....I am slowing down with this book. I just finished the trilogy of King Arthur and am about to start the one with Alexander, hoping this fiction helps me to "feel" more of each character's role and personality, ultimately for "Ghost on the Throne."

by Mary Renault

3. Did the change in Athens from a democracy to an oligarchy have much of an impact on the Athenian man in the street?

The Classical Wisdom website has a post about what life was like in Athens (although not necessarily for this point in time). The man described here probably wouldn't have been too affected by the decree, since he was pretty much middle-class.

1. I think the reason why the Macedonians had more generals to rely upon is possibly they had a larger population or possibly because Athens was a democracy there simply were not the many generals. In a monarchy, the nobility are more warlike than in a democracy.
2. Yes, I do believe Olympiuas was that evil. Her and her children's survival were dependent upon eliminiating competitors.
3. The change from a democracy to oligarchy in Athens probably did not initially effect the man on the street, but I think overtime they lost power and prestige.

Savannah wrote: "1. I think the reason why the Macedonians had more generals to rely upon is possibly they had a larger population or possibly because Athens was a democracy there simply were not the many generals...."

I expect that's part of the answer. Also Macedon had been enlarging its influence for years so had experience with war.

yeah Macedonia has been fighting for, well, since Alexander took over, so they had a large group of battle-hardened veterans with over a decade of experience. A bunch of Greeks among those hardened veterans we know were deliberately stationed in a different region (Bactria and Sogdinia) as mentioned in chapter 4 section 2. So the Greeks in Greece didn't have a lot of options in terms of experienced military leaders.

As for Olympias, I think she did what she had to. I'm sure she felt her life was in danger, and also knew her daughter, being in her 30's, was running out of time as being a valuable/desirable 'asset'. back in those days, as we see from the behavior of Antipater, daughters were more thought of as assets, I'll marry my eldest daughter to him so I can get influence, I'll marry my next daughter to that guy, we will be bound by me being father-in-law... without any thought as to if the daughters even liked the person, or if the person was really a good person or not. It did happen to her, as described in the chapter, "Polyxena, soon to become Olympias, was married off to the king of her powerful eastern neighbor..."

Marc wrote: "yeah Macedonia has been fighting for, well, since Alexander took over, so they had a large group of battle-hardened veterans with over a decade of experience. A bunch of Greeks among those hardened..."

Actually, I think the conquests were started by Alexander's father Philip II. But Alexander took it to the extreme.

All, when you complete reading and posting up through page 136 and comment about anything you want to discuss about Chapter 5 - The Athenians’ Last Stand (II), please go to the Week Six thread.

Here is the link to the Week Six thread:
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I don’t think Athens had aspirations of being a grand empire in geographic scope or in war. They seemed content to be a collection of city-states. They defended their ports and never fully developed their ground game without mercenaries, perhaps.

Thanks for your comment, Neelie. Maybe they were content being the intellectual capital of the world ;-)