The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of November 9th through November 15, we are reading approximately the next 24 pages of No Ordinary Time by Doris Kearns Goodwin.

The fourth week's assignment is:

November 9th – November 15th ~~ Chapter 5 (106 - 136)
Chapter Five – “No Ordinary Time” – page 106

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This thread should only deal with this chapter and these pages. No spoilers, please.

Discussion on these sections will begin on November 9th.

Welcome,

Bentley

TO SEE ALL PREVIOUS WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL








Doris Kearns Goodwin

Please make sure that you post in the appropriate week's thread. These are non spoiler threads.

What a delicate situation FDR finds himself in. Everyone knew that breaking 175 years of tradition wasn't something to play around lightly with. And by all means, Eleanor saying we are in "no ordinary time" was no understatement. Our country needed his continued leadership, and everyone knew that as well. What everyone didn't know was, what the Japanese were up to in the months that follow... this story has yet to shift into full gear. No ordinary time indeed!

Very true Joe..without the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor; who knows when the US would have entered the war and what the outcome for Europe would have been.

This thread is open folks.

Liz wrote: "Had Wallace not been approved, do you think FDR would have declined the nomination? Would he have read the speech he penned? Or, was the speech a ploy to lend urgency to Wallace's approval?"

Hi Liz. Thanks for that question.

He would have declined it, I have no doubt. He had no choice because the breaking of 175 years of tradition forced his hand. It needed to be made absolutely clear that he was being asked to stay, and not appearing that he was wishing to break tradition. How else could it have been made clearer then by telling the convention his requirements for staying, and they still wanted him? The convention acquiesced to his wishes as further confirmation that he did not in any way seek a third term. He needed to engineer events so that history remembered that he was asked to stay.

Thank you Liz for taking the initiative. Sometimes with so many threads; some threads do not always bubble to the top. Just wanted everyone to know that we were opening the thread officially.

Good comments from both you and Joe.

Sometimes though I do admire and respect FDR greatly..I still see him (at times) as the spoiled rich boy who seemed to get everything he wanted and that everybody had to cater to him and his needs (much as his mother had done all of those years). He was a very complex man and I wonder who really understood and knew his motivations. I think in this chapter Goodwin shows one of many complex sides of FDR; I am not sure that he cared how uncomfortable he made those close to him.

FDR was masterful yes, but I also believe others got snared in his scheme in a very uncomfortable way. But he was upfront about not appearing at all and wanting overwhelming support if he were to run a third term.
Eleanor certainly saved his tail!
The section about Missy is unclear as to whether these bouts of depression were due to FDR's change of plans or depression with no catalyst. I think Eleanor was part saint, part nut job for putting up with this relationship of Missy and FDR. Who is to say that being independent and doing fulfilling work was either cause or effect of being left out of so much of FDR's world, hmmmm.

Liz wrote: "Do you think that in a similar situation we would repeal term limits? Had term limits been in place in FDR's time, would we have overturned them to elect him? Was FDR's support that strong?"

No, I don't think so. FDR would have picked a successor and that would have been it. Maybe FDR could have been part of the next administration to help get through this crisis, but not President.

I hope I'm not too far off topic. I promise to come back to American history in my next post, but I had to ponder Liz's last comment in terms of polygamous societies. In the only one I have personal experience with, it works a bit like Eleanor and Missy's division of roles. The younger wife is the homemaker, slipper fetcher etc. while the senior wife is the family representative, shares decisions with the husband, often has comfortable separate living arrangements and a separate social group. Just a strange little parallel. Okay, have to edit this for clarity. I'm not part of a polygamous marriage, but my father in law was and one brother in law is.

Andrea, your post is intriguing. Are you implying that FDR and Eleanor had an unofficial polygamous marriage. You may not be far from the truth even though they did not call it that and Eleanor solely enjoyed all of the legal protections and sole beneficiary protection of being the recognized wife as did their children.

If there are questions regarding roles of polygamous marriages then of course please take the discussion out of this thread to the Off Topic conversation thread.

However, the similarity that you pointed out does seem somewhat relevant to FDR and Eleanor in terms of what defined their marriage post the revelations of the Mercer affair. Eleanor was not going to share any bed with FDR and would simply be the public wife and carer of their children as well as the public spousal iconic figure for FDR in order to promote his political career and safeguard his reputation. She would inherit everything from FDR as well as the estate of his mother, I presume. I never heard that anybody inherited anything so I presume this to be true. Thus when Eleanor passed away, their children would be passed on the Roosevelt estate as it should have been under the circumstances.

I imagine given your circumstances that you can see how these kind of social groups are set up.

Andrea, an interesting sidebar observation.

THIS PART MAY CONTAIN SOME POTENTIAL SPOILERS SO FOLKS WHO DO NOT WANT ANY SPOILERS PLEASE DO NOT READ ON

However, remember that Eleanor had two ultimatums: give up Lucy Mercer forever and never share a bed with her again and the fact that she Eleanor would never share a bed with Franklin either. So in Eleanor's mind she was not agreeing to anything even closely resembling a polygamous marriage or society even though behind her back and because of her own agreements it may have turned into some sort of relationship which may have had some parallels.

Also, years later after FDR died in Warm Springs and Eleanor learned much to her chagrin that Lucy Mercer was there visiting with him and that her own daughter Anna had helped arrange such trysts for her father...this caused a serious falling out between mother and daughter. Eleanor loved FDR till the day he died and did not know (maybe she deluded herself) that Lucy Mercer was still involved.

Also, Eleanor was receiving $8,000 a month from her trust while FDR was only receiving $5,000 a month. FDR could not afford to divorce Eleanor if his mother cut him off which she said that she would do. FDR wanted his money more than he wanted Lucy Mercer and the story he told Lucy was that Eleanor stood in the way but that was not the case.

So I do not think that in any way Eleanor thought that she was sharing FDR in the way that you have proposed; yet behind her back or maybe as she was deluding herself..that could have taken place.

Yes, Bentley, I agree. Eleanor might have been practicing a little self-deception, but she certainly didn't see it as sharing.

Still Andrea...you made an interesting observation.

There is an article which I found which may contain some spoilers so I have placed it in the glossary. It may contain some additional highlights regarding Mercer and FDR.

See glossary.

The relationship between Eleanor and FDR was partly New Age and partly medieval.

New Age in the sense that Eleanor was willing to share her husband with other women for all the reasons that Goodwin brings up in the book and FDR was pleased to se Eleanor have her own circle of friends including Joe Lash and Eleanor Hicks, etc.

Medieval in the sense that in those days the nobility lived by different rules and it was not unusual for a ruler or Noble to have a wife he married for political reasons and a mistress or two or three that he slept with.

FDR and Eleanor, definitely did not have a relationship like 99.9% of Americans of the time had.

Ed, I do believe that "FDR and Eleanor, definitely did not have a relationship like 99.9% of Americans of the time had." It would have been most unusual for the public to accept it.

Do you believe that potentially FDR felt he was "entitled". Entitled to anything or anyone he wanted? That possibly he did not have to play by the rules. From what I am learning, it was Sara, his mother, who put the brakes on; it was either going to be live by the family rules or there would be no family money.

And was Eleanor "willing" to share her husband; when she gave her ultimatums for staying..it did not sound that way. I think she was guilty of self deception but I never felt she knowingly was sharing him with others. If FDR was pleased to see Eleanor have her own circle of friends; was it more from a guilty conscience?

It is really obvious that Eleanor always loved FDR even after he died.

Bentley wrote: "Ed, I do believe that "FDR and Eleanor, definitely did not have a relationship like 99.9% of Americans of the time had." It would have been most unusual for the public to accept it.

Do you believ..."

Tough questions.

Do I think FDR had a sense of entitlement - absolutely. Though, I doubt he would have acknowledged the fact. His need for other people over-rode any kind of societal restraints, IMHO.

Sara had a sense of propriety but she also doted on Franklin, perhaps giving him the impression he could do what he wanted as long as he didn't embarrass her or the family.

By sharing, I was not referring to Lucy but to Missy, and his cousins, and Princess Martha, etc. I doubt if he had sexual relations with most of his female companions but he certainly flirted and got them involved in intimate situations. Eleanor was aware of all of them except Lucy. Her conditions were no more Lucy and no more sex, which he adhered to until the last few years.

FDR with a guilty conscience,? I think not. I believe he admired Eleanor greatly. I also think that when she was with her circle of friends, he could relax with his. She was, after all, a very demanding person without much of a sense of humor.

Can't say more about that without spoiling.

Of course there are no right or wrong answers...just hypotheses...but some interesting questions that I have had and probably many others about this great man; it seems that some of the most charismatic and most appealing political figures and/or persons of power...all seem to have some basic ego and adulation needs which are huge. It seems to me that these needs are their flaws and certainly not their strengths.

I think FDR ended up loving Eleanor like a close relative (even the cousin that she was) and he deeply admired those qualities in her that he probably knew he did not possess.

All in all these are some questions that we could pursue iteratively as we read on. Good insight... Ed.

Bentley

I understand from a political point of view why FDR felt it was better that he not appear and that he wait to be completely acclaimed as the candidate. But as the convention seemed to be disintegrating into chaos, he seems, at least from Goodwin's description to be acting somewhat selfishly. I don't know how strongly people felt about the 3rd term, but I can see how strongly the delegates felt about FDR not showing up. They felt, it seems to me, that he was treating them like pawns, that he wanted their votes but wasn't willing to get into the hot, loud convention center and fight it out. Just impressions, not sure I can back them up.

Andrea, I think you are probably correct in your hunch...again I have a feeling that it was his sense of entitlement (he was entitled to a third term). I think Franklin for all of his strengths..could still use people to his advantage. FDR was manipulative to a certain degree like many other powerful men. The delegates had a point.

I read this chapter at the beginning of the week, but didn't have a chance to read any of these comments until now. The part I thought was most interesting was the political party interactions. It is amazing that people who were openly jeering at Wallace would suddenly switch and vote him in as candidate. What a swift turn of events! And the author of that turn was Eleanor and her speech.

How prepared was her speech? Does anyone know? We also hear about FDR's speech-writers in this chapter. Did Eleanor ever use one? None is mentioned for this "No Ordinary Time" speech. Did she write it out ahead of time, or even parts of it? Or did she wing it completely? From the way events were described, I would guess she had some thoughts prepared, but perhaps not written down. She may have planned some sections, but it sounds like at least some of it was extemporaneous. Anyone know for sure?

According to the internet and this is a quote: "Franklin D. Roosevelt used the services of numerous speech writers, according to Dr. Buhite and David W. Levy in their book entitled FDR;s Fireside Chats, published by the University of Oklahoma Press, 1992. In the Buhite and Levy text, the authors lists speech writers as Harry Hopkins, Hugh Johnson, Raymond Moley, Rexford Tugwell, Benjamin Cohen, Thomas Corcoran, Donald Richberg, Adolf Berle and others. They list his WWII writers to include the famous Pulitizer Prize winners, poet-Librarian of Congress, Archibald MacLeish and Broadway playwrite Robert (Bob) Emmet Sherwood--(4 times a Pulitizer winner.)"

That seems to be a powerful team and I would assume they assisted Eleanor. Will keep digging to see what I find.

Hi Folks
Still I am behind and have read all your comments

I found the observation that he finally at Warm Springs decided he would not walk and therefore returned to politics extremely thought provoking - so if he could have accomplished more walking might he have restarted his political career three or four years later and missed being able to win the Presidency in 1932? - What a thought?

I find the way that Roosevelt let people commit themselves to him is probably a reflection of an attitude acquired by a life of prividlege that it was acceptable.

Missy suffered two nervous breakdowns - amazing - I also would find it very unlikely that there was no sexual relationship between them - well defined and non public but there.

There is no way to not realize how critical Eleanor was to FDRs continuing successes. However it seems to me that Roosevelt would have had someone else available - just as he had Howe to go to the convention when Farley would not be his man - if an Eleanor were not there.

And now - why Wallace - who was Wallace - the secretatry of agriculture that was so popular that the Democratic convention booed him? (I one day bought this crumby Oxford Guide to Unites States History which is abismal and I recommned no one buys it but my Encyclopedia is not here and these guys do not even list Wallace) - In this "non ordinary time" of crisis why did FDR not choose an accpeted man who could take over if something happened to him? - Farley would have been a good choice I think - And Roosevelt continued this folly in 1944, when his health was even worse and choose Truman who he shared no vital information with. This was real vanity and maybe arrogance on FDR's part and was not fulfilling all his responsibilities.

POTENTIAL SPOILERS - POTENTIAL SPOILERS - POTENTIAL SPOILERS

Hello Vince,

You can catch up at your leisure. We only do 50 pages a week; so that is about 7 pages a day with an extra page thrown in on one of the days....so if you just look at the reading that way...it is doable. Any slower than that and we lose people along the way. Any faster than that and the spotlighted thread will lose people because folks cannot keep up with their busy professional lives and days.

So I hope you can keep up at your own pace and catch up when you can.

I have to agree with you that Roosevelt felt entitled...entitled to a lot of things.
Entitled to power, entitled to extra marital relationships, entitled to folks waiting on him hand and foot.

I felt that FDR felt responsible at some level for Missy's health. And when she became ill, he did provide for her care. She shunned normal relationships that women might have; all because of FDR.

Eleanor was indispensable to him and did things that a Howe or a Farley could not do...she made him look normal; that he had ostensibly a normal wife, and a normal family with many children and she pretended that he allegedly was happy in his normal existence (even though there seemed to be everything abnormal in it in many ways behind closed doors).

Eleanor felt like a true outsider when she heard FDR laughing with Missy and others and would just simply go to her rooms; rather than to risk an icy stare.

I think his choices of these men (running mates) showed a lot about FDR himself. He wanted to shine and not be outshone by his counterparts. Maybe he purposely chose less impressive people to appear more impressive himself.

As far as Truman...here is a excerpt from the US News and Report..I will put the full article in the glossary:

"Roosevelt had chosen Truman, then a relatively obscure senator from Missouri, as his running mate in 1944 as a compromise choice that didn't alienate too many factions in the Democratic Party.

Truman was a solid supporter of FDR's New Deal and had a reputation for honesty and hard work. Few outside FDR's family and inner circle thought the president's health would be an immediate problem, and some believed that FDR would dump Truman after serving a fourth term and tap someone else as his successor.

During the 1944 campaign, Truman had little contact with Roosevelt, although he campaigned vigorously for his patron.

After winning his fourth term, FDR saw Truman only twice alone during the 82 days that Truman served as vice president. Then, on April 12, 1945, Roosevelt died of a stroke."

I think you are correct about FDR - Vince...I think even his choice of Eleanor as his partner and life running mate was also due to vanity and arrogance at some level and maybe to thwart Mom.

I think he felt that Eleanor too would not outshine him and would simply be a dutiful attentive wife. I think FDR accomplished a lot; do not mistake my comments but like every man and it seems like every president...he was flawed as we all are - I imagine.

One last thing...these spotlighted threads unlike many of the other threads on this board are "non-spoiler" so discussion of events should not go beyond the pages that are being read in each segment.

You can also re-discuss any previous topics, pages or threads; but you should not go ahead. I am not sure you know what topics are being discussed on the pages themselves because you have not caught up so I will give you a pass.

However, when in doubt always at the beginning of your post (in a non spoiler thread) - place the words in all caps - POTENTIAL SPOILERS as I have done.

Good analysis though Vince. Keep reading; you will not be disappointed in this book.

Bentley

Vince,

I'm glad you are catching up. I like your comments.

I agree that Eleanor was a big part of FDR's success. And to think that he might have missed the 1932 election if it weren't for his polio! Wow, what a thought. What would have changed in the world? The possibilities quickly become difficult to track.

And the choice for Wallace. Hmm. I think Goodwin explains it as well as can be done. It is hard to second-guess someone who never wrote a definitive autobiography in his retiring years. Sometimes I think FDR's unexpected choices were mainly to keep people guessing, so they wouldn't have expectations from him. But I hope he had more reason than that when selecting a VP!

message 28: by Vince
Nov 21, 2009 10:45PM

Missy suffered two nervous breakdowns - amazing
---------------------

I thought this was amazing, too. I don't think this would be allowed today. The press and opposing political party would be all over this.

Yes, everything is right out in the open nowadays and if it isn't there are a bunch of paparazzi and journalists who will make it so.