Amazon exiles discussion

Created this thread for folks to post any ideas they have, either to provide suggestions on how best to improve existing threads, or for any new ones folks would like to see created. No rules, just post your thoughts as and when! :)

So, to kick this off....I would like to introduce a new scoring system for Themes, that'll be more flexible that the current fixed point scoring system..and finally put to bed that old worn refrain that pretty much every contributor has posted at one time or another...."Would've voted for others if I had them!" Well...under my new scoring system, ya can have all the votes ya want! :)

I've thought of this cos, how many times have I (and indeed the rest of you) had listened to a playlist, and thought to myself "Why can't I vote for ALL of the songs on it that I like?" Instead of whittling them down to 4 or 5 favs?

Plus...I would like to see a truer representation of how a song makes a voter feel...so if one only likes the one song in a playlist, but they love it so much...why not stick a load of points on it?

Since the voting and the winning songs in any round is inconsequential, cos we all like something different from any playlist...I for one have had to feign an insincere congratulatory stance on some closing posts, when the three winning songs were the worse on the playlist!!!!! So now you know....my hypocrisy can only go so far folks!!!

So yeh...my new variable point scoring system would be more representative an if nothing else..more interesting! :)

'if one only likes the one song in a playlist, but they love it so much...why not stick a load of points on it?' - because someone could wait until the last second and vote a gazillion points for their fave and trump everything. Imagine running an election where you could write in any number of votes for the candidate(s) of your choice - how many would the Trumpster have given himself? Similarly when there are 5 points to play with they could just drop the 5 alone on one track and make it the winner. We had a version of this debate on zon's threads and came to the conclusion the current system where you award whatever points within the range available but they must start from 1 and work upwards.

It may be that voting threads have a limited life (which I don't particularly think it's helpful to draw attention to as it might be a further turn-off) but if that's so no amount of CPR will resurrect them. The fora lost a lot of punters well before the transition to 카지노싸이트 which in turn lost a few more. If folks have what they believe to be 'good ideas' they are free to set up a thread and it will prosper or otherwise as the community see fit.

Completely agree with BN, Duke. I think the present system is very fair, anything else would be open to abuse. I must admit I have occasionally voted for a couple of tracks I wasn’t so keen on so that I could give more to my favourite. I suspect I’m not alone.
Does that make me a bad person? ;-)

Well there would be a limit on points to give out Brassy...I was thinking of using a variation of the scoring system I used for the FA anniversary round last year. Every voter gets a pot of points, to share out between all the songs they like, as they see fit. As I pointed out in my argument, it doesn't matter who's song wins...unless folks are of competitive nature...I stopped being one those yonks ago...now, for me, it's just the quality of the music that matters..the voting is just a nice way to close the thread and a chance for folks to express their appreciation (or not!) for the songs on them. So I say...why not have a little more fun with it?

And my argument was limited to a music thread, the political way of voting, well...that's another argument altogether. But if you must know, I'd prefer the alternative voting method as is used in Australia and 3 other countries (I think), rather than this unrepresentive first past the post system, we currently have. Granted, the alternative system would've had far more UKIP MPs in the 2015 GE, of which, i'm no fan of, but it would've been a fairer system, cos UKIP got nearly a 3rd of all votes in that election, and yet only had one MP from it!

And on a final note...as I've pointed out on the Coltrane thread..this isn't Amazon anymore, not that that makes much difference, but we ought to be free to take these old threads in new directions if folks desire it, and that's the limiting factor here, some folks just don't like change.

les - yes it does! :)

i don't vote for anything i don't like! i know i'm a bad person!

i think 'themes' is fine as it is. the nature of the requirements encourage variety and inspire levels of research to locate appropriate songs to put forward - the choice of themes to put forward is practically infinite. in my opinion, doesn't require an upgrade.

f.a., however is f.u.! the well is running dry for nominations that will keep folks innarested - as i said recently, folks don't appear to have the patience for the obscure, and are bored by the 'biggies', so, i estimate that the future of the thread (as it is) is based on the skill and judgement of the nominator, like the skill and judgement displayed by s.j. in forwarding stevie wonder, a nomination, i imagine, that will generate good response!
to change f.a., i have no suggestions, but all things only last as long as they are supposed to!

Any system of points is going to be imperfect. Even if you have to start with one point and work up, as Brass says, a voter who actually only liked a single song on the list could just pick out the four lowest scoring songs... award them 1-4 points and give 5 to the one they do like.

It's also perfectly possible to snipe under the current system (or at least it feels that way when you're on the receiving end!) On several occasions I've had a nom leading by a few points and someone has come in shortly before voting ends and knocked mine off the top - ironically, that 'someone' has usually been Brassy! ;-)

MY IDEA

A variation on Favourite Artists :
We take it in turns to nominate songs from our favourite artists, say 10 -15 at a time BUT no more than 2 from the same artist. Nominations to be posted on a Monday and votes to be in by the following Sunday evening. Don’t know how to sort what order we’d go in! Votes would always be from 5 - 1.
Comments?

I agree with the other comments re: voting system for 'themes'. It's fine as it is. No point making it unnecessarily complicated. And no, I'm not averse to changes/new things!

I have never nominated an artist for the 'favourites' voting threads because I felt it would be unfair as I don't participate in it much. I don't always have the time, wherewithal or inclination to explore artists I'm unfamiliar with - yes, my loss. Also, why would I waste my time listening to music/artists I definitely know that I hate/don't like?! 😀
I would happily take part in the current round but don't feel it's fair on the stalwarts who do put in the time and effort every round.

well, happily take part then! :)

Tech wrote: "well, happily take part then! :)"

Hmmm, maybe. Don't want to put any noses out of joint!

That's partly why I decided to stop contributing anymore, Helen ;o<

The biggest problem of all, I feel, is simply that not that many of the original and more regular Forum members are bobbing in now - not even to take any part in the rest of the overall Forum.

Now on Amazon it could be, quite rightly, be said that the repetitive and often abusive destruction of these Threads by continual trolling badly took it's toll on Everyone - but that is definitely not the case on here now, is it? - and so the reality is obviously far more that Forum folk do sometimes lose interest and that they will drift off from time to time to focus far more on all of the other much more important things that are going on in their lives.

I only recently decided that I wanted to start to contribute again to these Threads and to help swell the dwindling numbers taking part - but within weeks I soon felt like I was increasingly coming under personal pressure to try my very best to contribute to all of them - and into feeling really bad if I missed a nomination or vote deadline by accident or had chosen to opt out because I didn't like the Artist or the Music.

I get the distinct impression that some folk are beginning to get upset and to take it all far more personally because they are not also noticing or realising that so few folk are coming into any parts of the overall Group Forum right now - to post up anything anywhere never mind just bobbing in to nominate and vote.

And there are only so many times that you can keep on posting up apologies to Everyone and in feeling bad about something before you end up deciding that it's probably far better if you just opt out completely instead. Because that way no-one ever gets to feel any more personally disappointed or let-down by your lack of contribution.

And when the fun part of it all stops, then it all becomes far more of an unpleasant chore - and I never wanted for it to be like that for me which is why I decided to pull out.

If I thought that I could continue to drop in on these Threads from time to time without also feeling my own contribution to be almost a mandatory requirement of taking part now - or without creating any kind of completely unintended disappointment or offence to anyone by opting out of the ones that are of no interest to me - then I obviously would want to keep on doing so.

But that doesn't really feel to me like it is an option anymore? - and especially after reading all of the discussions over the last couple of weeks, and so I felt like I had no other choice but to have to pull out of everything on this part of the Group Forum ;o<

Might it not be the case that things are a bit more anodyne now because there are no trolls and it's all sweetness & light? Nowt like a verbal handgrenade to spark a whole lot of argybargy and postings. Come back Meses .........

Yep! - and there is also that too, Mr B ;o>

And I'm pretty sure that 'he' will indeed turn up eventually!

suzysunshine7 wrote: "That's partly why I decided to stop contributing anymore, Helen ;o<

The biggest problem of all, I feel, is simply that not that many of the original and more regular Forum members are bobbing in n..."

Suzy, please don’t include me in ‘everyone’! Yes the ‘trolls’ were annoying but I found them easy to ignore. I’ve never felt pressure from anyone about anything and it would never affect my behaviour anyway. I do apologise when I’ve not had time or have forgotten to nom or vote but not for not liking something - surely personal taste is what it’s all about?

Exactly what I thought, Lez Lee ;o>

When I read through some of the recent discussions though I realised that others were suggesting that they were feeling marginalised and even a bit isolated by their own personal tastes rather than in feeling like they were an equal and also a valued member of a widely diverse yet still all-inclusive Forum.

I started to push myself into taking part in some Threads that I really did struggle with because they were most definitely not my kind of thing at all. And that's when all of my previous interest and enjoyment and the fun sadly started to stop for me.

I do like to challenge myself occasionally - but I like to do it because I feel like I want to - rather than to feel like I have to or else I may inadvertently cause someone to feel disappointed or let-down by me not deciding to give their own favoured choice a go.

Folk left the Threads on Amazon often citing the Troll activity as being the reason why. Then we briefly had lots of excited anticipatory interest in all of these Threads at first on here - yet now the initial honeymoon phase of coming over to 카지노싸이트 has passed - folk have settled down again and many have seemingly drifted offline once again and for other various reasons this time around.

Personally I think that even if only just 5 or 6 people get a great deal of pleasure from participating and contributing to one of these Threads then it is still more than worth while to keep on with running them - but that is only just my opinion ;o>

"I don't always have the time, wherewithal or inclination to explore artists I'm unfamiliar with - yes, my loss. Also, why would I waste my time listening to music/artists I definitely know that I hate/don't like?! 😀

This is exactly the reason I've stopped contributing to the F.A. threads. It's not fair on those that bother to nominate and vote week in week out.

Brass Neck wrote: "Might it not be the case that things are a bit more anodyne now because there are no trolls and it's all sweetness & light? Nowt like a verbal handgrenade to spark a whole lot of argybargy and post..."

Last seen getting neutered in a secure London psychiatric hospital.

A sad end.

0/10

meses can come backses if thems brass'oles shoutses meses name thems three timeses!

oh, 'scuse me, i must've nodded off there, but, you know i had the weirdest dream...........

Tech wrote: "meses can come backses if thems brass'oles shoutses meses name thems three timeses!"

I think he’s still around somewhere like Politics (?) I saw some posts from him when we first came over to 카지노싸이트 and I was checking what’s what.

i theenk, (ha!) that if folks, for the reasons above, aren't comfortable dropping into f.a. from time to time (i don't see what's wrong with that anyway!) then something has gone awry! and if that's the case, i wouldn't like to continue as (i have often said) the key thing for me is inclusion, and if a fair number of our community don't feel part of it, or feel awkward participating in rounds that interest them, then i think we've f****d it up and should call time on it! (after stevie wonder, mind! :))

Has anyone read my ‘MY IDEA’ post, Message 9 above?
Any comments?

yes

no

boom! as i'm relatively slow on the uptake i would appreciate a little fleshing out (oo-er, missus) but yes, i think it has promise! as per reasons above, something fresh and new would be a welcome.

Tech wrote: "yes

no

boom! as i'm relatively slow on the uptake i would appreciate a little fleshing out (oo-er, missus) but yes, i think it has promise! as per reasons above, something fresh and new would be ..."

I was waiting for comments before ‘fleshing out’ though I think it’s quite a simple idea.

Lez wrote: "Has anyone read my ‘MY IDEA’ post, Message 9 above?
Any comments?"

I'm not sure if I am quite understanding it yet, Lez Lee?

One of the main arguments is that the much lesser known, and sometimes also lesser liked, Bands never stand any chance in the Voting System against the far more well-known and popular mainstream Bands - so I can't see how that is going to be any different when the likes of Thea Gilmore and Clifford Ward might be put for nomination along-side, say, Pink Floyd or The Who?

Wouldn't the same kinds of Voting patterns occur as they do now?

suzysunshine7 wrote: "Lez wrote: "Has anyone read my ‘MY IDEA’ post, Message 9 above?
Any comments?"

I'm not sure if I am quite understanding it yet, Lez Lee?

One of the main arguments is that the much lesser known, ..."

There could be songs by 12 + different artists on one list. Some people might nom mostly quite well-known artists, some mostly unknown but at least we’d never be stuck with just one artist we loathed (Abba, Springsteen for me!). It just seems a possible way of getting some variety and not knowing till we listened, thus bringing the ‘something different’ element.

Well? - it could work? ;o>

Serial wrote: "Brass Neck wrote: "Might it not be the case that things are a bit more anodyne now because there are no trolls and it's all sweetness & light? Nowt like a verbal handgrenade to spark a whole lot of..."

Tim, always wondered this, is Ed Mo the slightly nicer side of Meses split personality, or a totally different person? I liked Ed sometimes (when he wasn't being a cheeky git).

I think so. He was often on ‘Deals’ late at night and could be quite helpful and pleasant. Never actually caught him out though!

'I liked Ed sometimes (when he wasn't being a cheeky git)' - no-one has ever trespassed so far beyond the boundaries of cheeky gitdom into overt and gratuitous trollery than LOM.

(See - just talking about the twat in his absence generates a stream of posts)

After a busy weekend my head isn't adjusting well to all these different ideas. I have posted before on Lez's Clifford T. Ward thread and also on the Alice Coltrane thread. If anything I've said has made posters uncomfortable, I apologize. My remarks were not aimed at any specific posters, more the collective "we".

One of the problems of being a smaller group (as I see it) is that we don't have the wider tastes that we used to see. Again, speaking for myself, I used to enjoy the off-piste nominations from Mondo. I liked RedAl's knowledge of all things soul and traditional r 'n' b. I liked Neph's pop sensibilities. Perhaps that is why Themes are faring better because there is more variety. However it is unlikely we are going to woo any new music lovers to our little band.

I do feel that if FA continues, ALL posters should be encouraged to nominate if it suits them - no compulsion, no guilt, just if you have the time, the interest, put up a nomination. And the same would go for voting. I believe it needs to be okay to nominate without voting and vice-versa. This should be made quite clear - IT IS OKAY TO BE A DROP-IN NOMINATOR AND/OR VOTER! And if you take up this option, you can also choose whether you want to put forward an artist or not. Personally I would like to see Helen, Suzy and others put forward an artist because, as I said above, I like variety. I often vote for Helen's nomination on themes having never heard of the artist before.

Re Duke's suggestions: If we don't want posters to feel pressurised into nominating, I think the two nomination option should be available to anyone who chooses to use it. So some folk may nominate one track, others two. And if one poster winds up taking out the gold and silver on the podium, good luck to them.

The "pot of votes" suggestion should be tried out to see how it works. I think the rules of the spread would have to be made clear. Perhaps you would have to spread your votes between a minimum and maximum of tracks and a minimum and maximum of points awarded. So if you had 24 votes, you would have to award them to a minimum of 4 and a maximum of 8 tracks and a minimum of 1 votes and a maximum of 8. So you might wind up awarding 8, 7, 6, 3 votes or 8, 4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1. I’m sure Duke will have a much better suggestion as I'm already getting a headache looking at my own suggestion and I am sure asking posters to add up their votes correctly will cause more problems. Also, the potential for late vote rigging is probably still present although I would be surprised if any of our small band really looked at the votes already cast and deliberately altered their votes to elevate a winner. Surely not??

Re Lez’s suggestion: I’m not sure I fully understand it. Is it like putting up a playlist of 12 – 15 tracks, no more than 2 from any one act? I like it in theory even though I know no one is likely to want to subject themselves to any such list I am likely to submit. It’s a bit like when we used to make compilation CDs for the various PPUs. I certainly think it’s worth giving it a go to see if it does have legs or not. I can imagine that I would enjoy Lez and Helen’s lists and find at least something of interest in everyone else’s. E.g. Foe’s suggestion (originally Helen’s I think) of Linea Aspera in the One Album Wonders thread.

One difficulty that I wrote of elsewhere: “many newer/little-known artists don’t have a large body of work on YouTube and posters aren’t always keen to go to Bandcamp, Soundcloud, Vimeo, etc”. Any thoughts on that?

An idea I floated (only in the interests of floating ANY idea) was that we only seek nominations from albums released in the 21st century or artists who had released albums in the 21st century (so you might wind up voting for their old material vs their new stuff). But this might disadvantage someone who had a niche interest in sixties folkies , eighties punk, etc.

That’s about my two bob’s worth for now but interested to see how the debate continues.

all sound stuff, val, i totally agree that participation shouldn't be mandatory or exclusive. my options might be relatively slim re the 21st century thing tho'. whether or not i like or dislike new music, i still think these nominations should be suspended, till things build up again, if f.a. is to continue. even at that, the only reason (other than i like his stuff) i forwarded morrissey was for reasons of inclusion and maximum participation, but to see folks wanting to participate, but not feeling comfortable to do so, is something that saddens me. but hey ho, if 9's the best we can do for an act like morrissey, then i definitely think the end's in sight!

Yes, I thought the 21st century thing would disadvantage some. Unless you included re-issues. But it still gets back to the old problem : it wouldn't necessarily increase interest or participation.

I've tried to always nominate Australian artists (even some that aren't necessarily my particular favourites) because I wanted to give the artists some exposure plus hopefully offering something a bit different. If FA continues I think perhaps I will try for some middle-tier artists - maybe Laura Nyro, even though I know there's some posters who aren't over keen on female vocalists.

Laura Nyro has just given me another idea: open up FA to favourite songwriters. I think we did the songs of Burt Bacharach as a theme. I could see Bob Dylan, Cat Stevens, Jimmy Webb, Dan Penn/Spooner Oldham, Elton John, Leiber/Stoller, Holland/Dozier/Holland, Randy Newman, Goffin/King, Mann/Weill, Barry/Greenwich, Tony Hatch, etc as potential subjects but then again, if some posters are time poor, they may not be keen on researching versions by composer.

There's a danger here that too much navel-gazing inflates minor niggles (there's an idea .....) to gargantuan issues and encourages yet more to drift away? One of my most used phrases when dealing with life's hurdles is, 'it is what it is' closely followed by 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. In less than 5 years I will have retired, become time-rich and might hope to participate more again but for now life keeps happening/intruding and I rarely have the time, and sometimes, interest. There are some artists you just KNOW you have no interest in and no amount of listening to the first few seconds of tracks on YT will alter that. I DO tend to vote late if at all as it will be more influential but I NEVER look at who nominated what (@ Tim) - the only way I can see to stop that would be to send your secret votes as a message to Duke so you can't see how things are shaping up before voting (can't see that being popular nor pratical. There is a slight competitive angle for some/me and if there wasn't I'd be less interested.

There you go, it is what it is, if it ain't broke don't fix it and, at the end of the day, life/s*** happens here in clicheland.

Oh yeah, a suggestion that actually chimes is fave songwriters and covers thereof. Oops, apologies for that slip into positivity there, normal service will now be resumed.

Ooh, also I think it was much better to have one thread for nomming and a separate one for voting so the first post explains the rules, encourages anyone who wants to to participate and, crucially, has the playlist without having to search through 50 (we wish) posts to find it. Hardly a new idea but rather an 'if t'weren't broke tha din't need to fix it' one. Back to the future ...... NOW!

If Duke's revised scoring idea were to be tested, we could change to a system of just recording our votes without totting up the leaderboard to reduce the possibility of gazumping. It would add to the thread runner's workload a bit, but given the reduced number of voters nowadays, I don't think it would be too onerous.

I would agree with Val's (I think it was) idea that there should be some restrictions on just how many points could be awarded if they were being awarded randomly from a pool. If each voter had say 20 points to share out, they would have to use all or none, and there'd have to be a maximum you could give any song, maybe 8 at the most. So, someone couldn't come on and give 20 points to one track, and if they did truly only like one song they'd have to find homes for the other 12 points or not vote.

In any case I think fears of gazumping are overplayed; otherwise there'd be no voting at all until 20 minutes from the end, would there?! ;-)

Another suggestion. Back in the day we had a series of votes for songs of a decade. Perhaps that could be revived, except in the form of tracks of the year (similar to the year end ones). It's easy enough to find stuff; just go to Wiki page for 'music in (insert year)' and go down to albums released section - the lists aren't comprehensive, and there are occasional errors, most often if a record was released in one year in the U.S. and the previous (or following) year elsewhere. Those can be double checked on the album's own page or at Discogs, however.

Val wrote: "Yes, I thought the 21st century thing would disadvantage some. Unless you included re-issues. But it still gets back to the old problem : it wouldn't necessarily increase interest or participation...."

'Yes, I thought the 21st century thing would disadvantage some.' - all the old gits stuck in the 70s and 80s (like me - 70s, not 80s; that were a crap musical decade by and large)? ;¬)

Ahhh, all of the top hits of 1870's! ... "My Grandfather's Clock", "Camptown Races", "I'll Take You Home Again, Kathleen", "Onward, Christian Soldiers" ... British Music Hall and Gilbert & Sullivan ... (*giggles*) ;o>

Tim wrote: "If Duke's revised scoring idea were to be tested, we could change to a system of just recording our votes without totting up the leaderboard to reduce the possibility of gazumping. It would add to ..."

'In any case I think fears of gazumping are overplayed; otherwise there'd be no voting at all until 20 minutes from the end, would there?!' - it's not just a game you know! ;¬)

I’d be happy enough with the 21st century and songs of a decade, but not songwriters as unless it’s the singers themselves, I never have the foggiest (and am not interested in) who wrote what.
However aren’t these just alternative themes rather than artists’ threads? Not necessarily a bad thing.
Agree with BN about separating noms and votes threads. Having to scroll down to find the closing day and playlist is a bit of a bind and has possibly contributed to more of us missing the voting. Perhaps the closing day/date could be added to the thread heading?
So far as I’m aware nomming/voting have never been mandatory or exclusive (?)
I’ve no suggestions about numbers of votes, I’m fine with the present system. I can see an awful lot of confusion and argument if scoring is changed dramatically! Also, it would be an awful lot of hassle for Duke or whoever was moderating.
Val - yes, a playlist is exactly what I mean.
Another suggestion is a straighforward alphabetical one like we did with song-titles, with either the first or surname beginning with the appropriate letter. First letter of the whole name for bands/groups.

Brass Neck wrote: "In less than 5 years I will have retired, become time-rich and might hope to participate more again but for now life keeps happening/intruding and I rarely have the time, and sometimes, interest. ..."

I for one may have dropped off the perch by then!!!

However, if Spacepig would like a break, I am willing to learn a bit about setting up playlists. I think I know enough to start up nomination and voting threads. I would just have to time-shift opening/closing times a bit to allow for the time difference here in Oz.

suzysunshine7 wrote: "Ahhh, all of the top hits of 1870's! ... "My Grandfather's Clock", "Camptown Races", "I'll Take You Home Again, Kathleen", "Onward, Christian Soldiers" ... British Music Hall and Gilbert & Sullivan..."

I'm fairly sure that back on'Zon (and possibly almost ten years ago??) we did go backwards with decades and do the 1930s and possibly 1920s as well. I'd be in it!!

Tim wrote: "Another suggestion. Back in the day we had a series of votes for songs of a decade. Perhaps that could be revived, except in the form of tracks of the year (similar to the year end ones). It's easy..."

Sounds a goer to me!

Brass likes songwriters, Lez doesn't. So again, if we did that, it would be up to posters to decide whether that theme suited them and nom/vote (or not) accordingly.

Lez wrote: "Agree with BN about separating noms and votes threads. Having to scroll down to find the closing day and playlist is a bit of a bind and has possibly contributed to more of us missing the voting. Perhaps the closing day/date could be added to the thread heading?..."

Definitely worth trying!! I agree it would make it easier for some to get noms/votes in if the artist interests them.

Lez wrote: "ISo far as I’m aware nomming/voting have never been mandatory or exclusive (?"

You're absolutely right Lez but I think it's worth reiterating. Some of my remarks may well have led posters to feel guilty about not participating.

Lez wrote: "Another suggestion is a straighforward alphabetical one like we did with song-titles, with either the first or surname beginning with the appropriate letter. First letter of the whole name for bands/groups..."

I second this suggestion!!

Val wrote: "Brass Neck wrote: "In less than 5 years I will have retired, become time-rich and might hope to participate more again but for now life keeps happening/intruding and I rarely have the time, and som..."

'I for one may have dropped off the perch by then!!!' - surely you're immortal Val?